Monday, June 9, 2008
Book Thief--Identity
Discuss how the novel addresses and explores the topic of identity. Consider the various ways that identity is defined in the Germany of World War I and how identity is defined in the Germany of World War II. What is different? What do these differences suggest? Consider also the role that family, religion, class, education, physical ability, political affiliations, morals, and others play in defining who or what one is in Nazi Germany as well as in the novel. What argument does the novel promote about identity in the face of these more narrow classifications about what makes us of who we are?
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The Book Thief promotes the idea of identity as deeper than what is defined on the outside of a person. The narrator states, "In those days, they said the Jews preferred to simply stand and take things. Take the abuse quietly and then work their way back to the top" (188). This defines Jews, as a whole, as weak and passive. Then Death says, "Obviously, every Jew is not the same" (188) meaning Max is different and cannot be put into that group. Max fights for himself and shows his strength to all. This shows that a person cannot be identified by their outside image and they are not the same as others in their religion.
The chapter, "A Short History of the Jewish Fistfighter," categorizes Max as an individual. It gives the reader his background and helps us realize that he is not the same as someone else. He protests the definition of a Jew who stands and takes abuse quietly, so he fights to be recognized as an individual person. He fights for his religion to be overlooked and to make his own identity. With Max's character the novel promotes the idea of creating your own identity and not taking one that is given to you.
I agree with Marisa that Max's character promotes the idea of creating your own identity, however Hans and Rosa do that as well. When they take Max in, they are discarding important German ideals and embracing the human ideals of compassion and friendship. "Exactly what kind of people Hans and Rosa Hubermann were was not the easiest problem to solve. Kind people? Ridiculously ignorant people? People of questionable sanity?"(199) Hans and Rosa were completely different from their German neighbors simply because they were kind to a German enemy. Like Marisa said, identity truly is "deeper than what is defined on the outside of a person."
I agree with Monica and Marisa on the idea of creating your own identity. But some characters receive help to find their identity. Without the Germans burning the books, I don't think Liesel would have had enough motivation to steal the book. If Leisel didn't steal the book, she would have never gotten her identity of being the book theif. When she does take the book from the fire "beneath her shirt, a book was eating her up."(122) This is both figurative and literal, and it defines Liesel as the book theifbecause her hunger for words has led her to her identity.
Holly makes a good point by saying, "Without the Germans burning the books, I don't think Liesel would have had enough motivation to steal the book." This does prove to be help in Liesel's identity. The mayor's wife also helps Liesel to create her identity by leaving her window open and allowing Liesel to steal her books. She doesn't become a true burglar because she doesn't take anything else from the house. She only wants to be known as The Book Thief.
Liesel's friend, Rudy, is always changing who he is and who he wants to be. For example, on page 58, after running like he was in the olympics, Rudy says to his father, "I was being Jesse Owens." This shows that Rudy wants to be somebody and not just a boy in a lower class. Rudy's dream of running isn't brought up during the rest of the novel which makes the reader think that Rudy has changed his dreams and doesn't want to be like Jesse Owens anymore.
After Rudy steals from Otto Sturm Death states, "In years to come, he would be a giver of bread, not a stealer--proof again of the contradictory human being. So much good, so much evil" (164). Rudy has obviously crossed over onto the good side later in life. This tells the reader that Rudy is always redefining himself.
Marisa said, "Rudy's dream of running isn't brought up during the rest of the novel which makes the reader think that Rudy has changed his dreams and doesn't want to be like Jesse Owens anymore." However, he works so hard at running to get ready for the races for the Hitler Youth. "'Four gold medals,' he said to Liesel one afternoon when she did laps with him at Hubert Oval. 'Like Jesse Owens back in '36'"(360). Rudy hasn't changed dreams necessarily, just refined them. He still enjoys running but his main goal in life isn't to be like Jesse Owens, anymore.
Rudy does eventually grow up and learn to be more mature with his actions. He wasn't necessarily ever on the bad side, but as a child he did some "evil" things.
I agree with Holly, Liesel has received help to find her identity. However, I think Liesel starts to create her identity before the Germans started burning books. I believe the fact that the Germans burn books motivates her to steal her second book The Shoulder Shrug, but this is not her first motivation. Her first motivation is her family. When Liesel's mother is sending away her children and Liesel's brother dies, they have a small funeral for him. It is after the funeral, that Liesel steals her first book. Later in the book, her reasons and motivations for stealing the book are revealed.
"***The Book's Meaning***
1. The Last time she saw her brother
2. the last time she saw her mother" (38).
Liesel took the book because it was the last real connection she had to her family. Therefore her family serves as the assistance she required to receive her identity.
Technically, Liesel never stole "The Grave Digger's Handbook" she found it buried in the snow at her brother's grave.
"There was something black and rectangular lodged in the snow. Only the girl saw it. She bent down and picked it up and held it firmly in her fingers. The book had silver writing on it." (24)
You could say she stole the book from the snow, but that wouldn't be right.
Liesel found her identity through the other books she took, but Lari is right in saying that the first book did help Liesel find a piece of her identity. Without "The Grave Digger's Handbook" Liesel might not have found her passion for books and that would change the entire story.
I feel that Liesel's identity is shaped more by the connections she makes with people through books then the books themselves. For Instance, Liesels first direct conversation with Max Vandenburg is about "Mein Kampf". She asks, "Is it-good."(pg. 217) Max Replies with "It's the best book ever.""It saved my life"(pg217) This begins their close friendship and they learn about how similar they are to each other. Through Max, liesel sees that she is not alone in her troubles and finds strength within herself to deal with the death of her brother on her own. "The only thing that changed was that Liesel told her papa that she should be old enough to cope on her own with the dreams."(pg220)Liesel doesnt see Max as simply a Jew, but a close friend. She learns not to let the standards of the world she lives in define who she is. Her friendship with Max is an example of that.
I agree with Keeley that Liesel's identity is more shaped by the connections she makes with people through books, than by the books themselves. Besides becoming closer to Max through books, Liesel also becomes closer to Hans. When she wakes up screaming from her nightmares and wets her bed, he discovers her first book.
***A 2 A.M. CONVERSATION***
"Is this yours?"
"Yes, Papa."
"Do you want to read it?"
Again, "Yes, Papa."
A tired smile.
Metallic eyes, melting.
"Well, we'd better read it, then."(64)
When he discovers that book, they start the long process of Liesel learning to read. As she learns to read, she gets her identity because she learns to love books so much. So, while she is becoming closer to Hans through books, she is also discovering herself.
Going back a little Monica said, "I agree with Marisa that Max's character promotes the idea of creating your own identity, however Hans and Rosa do that as well." I believe Hans does this more than Rosa though. Hans refuses to agree and comply with the Nazis and their rules. This doesn't only revolve around hiding Max in their basement. On page 394 instead of standing around and watching the Jews march by Hans "held his hand out and presented a piece of bread." He was the only one to do this. This teaches readers that identity also includes not being afraid of taking a stand against the wrong and doing something right.
Like Marisa said, Hans stands up against the ideas of Nazi Germany. During World War 2, Nazi's try to define people as a group based on race. They create the ideal human, a blond hair, blue eyed German. They make all other races out to be less than human, especially the Jews. “We put an end to the disease that has been spread through Germany for the last 20 yrs.”(110)By doing this, Germany tries to create one identity for all Germans and another for all unworthy races. This creates a dilemma for the characters in this story. They don’t agree with the german ideal and don’t want to be represented by one identity. For Hans, He believes in the complete opposite of the Fuhrer but he is faced with the decision of whether to pretend to agree with the Nazi’s or to stand alone in the face of danger. ”he didn’t think the hatred could last, and it was a conscious decision not to follow Hitler. On many levels, it was a disastrous one.”(180) Hans made the dicision to stand against Hitler. In this he chooses his own identity rather than choose to be identified by his country.
I think that by showing how Hans went against Germany and its ideals by hiding and helping Jewish people, and by develping Rudy and Liesels characters by having them evolve from book thiefs and bread stealers to word shakers and bread givers, Zusak shows the complexity of the world we live in, and therefore the complexity that Germany too held.
Not everyone in Natzi Germany was the same, for people have this ability to morph and change who they are, as Zusak shows. When people think of Natzi Germany, all we can picture is lines of swastika labeled men, all heiling Hitler. All we can see, as Max portrayed in The Word Shaker story, are people who have been run "through a rampant machine" (445). And although there were plenty of people who beleived that by killing Jews and other sub-humans, they were "[cleaning] out the garbage and [making Germany] great," (105) Zusak also wanted to make it clear that it is only with ignorance that people can stereotype an entire people, just as it is ignorant to beleive that all Jews will not fight for what is their right, as Marisa L brought up. There were those in Germany who like Hans, risked their lives to protect a friend, for they saw them as their friend, not a Jew. Germany is made up of millions of people,and people are not so simple as to be categorized under one all assuming stereotpe. Zusak shows the complexities of human kind throughout this book as a way to remind people that although Hitler was able to convince thousands through either fear or hope that they must follow him, there were still those who could see his lies, and who like Liesel and Max, chose to follow a "different colored path"(450).
In a discussion such as this, I often find that a definition of the topic is helpful. Therefore, Dictionary.com defines identity as “The distinct personality of an individual regarded as a persisting entity” (Source 1). In connection with Markus Zusak’s The Book Thief, I find this theme of identity is most relevant to the main character, Liesel. She, like every other child on the planet, is searching for her identity. Children, we must remember, are new to the Earth. They have yet to be defined by anything other than their parents; because Liesel has lost both her parents, her quest for an identity must begin. Zusak illustrates how this identity is created through a person’s actions. From the very beginning, Liesel is known as the Book Thief. After her first bed wetting incident, she is known briefly as “the bed wetter” (66). Liesel’s search for an identity ends the moment she picks up The Grave Digger’s Handbook. She is hereafter defined by that action.
Mira W makes an excellent point when she states that “Zusak also wanted to make it clear that it is only with ignorance that people can stereotype an entire people.” I find this an interesting comment in a number of ways but most significantly in the way it applies to the Nazi party. We, along with Zusak in his novel, stereotype the Nazi party. I’m not saying that we are in any way ignorant towards their actions as a whole; rather, that not every soldier and man who was a Nazi was a blood-thirsty, Jew-hater. Zusak calls one man “a uniform” (119). Who knows how many were scared into becoming a Nazi, yet we define them by their uniform. We have created a stereotype for an entire people that is not necessarily true.
Source 1: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/identity
I agree with Jessica when she says that she finds the theme of identity most relevant to Liesel, but for a different reason. In the beginning of the book, Liesel is being moved to Munich to live with foster parents. We can't tell if she had any kind of identity before this move occured, but something like moving would be a major event to anyone, especially a little girl, and quite possibly big enough to shake up her identity. But I disagree with Jessica when she says that Liesel's search for an identity ends when she stole her first book. On the contrary, I believe that is part of what sparks her search for an identity. She hides the book from the Hubermanns, which I took as remorse, or shame. "A black book with silver writing on it came hurtling out and landed on the floor, between the tall man's feet. He looked down at it. He looked at the girl who timidly shrugged." (54) I interpreted this passage that she was afraid Hans was going to punish her. I believe the conflict she felt stealing is part of what formed her identity.
I agree with both Mira and Jessica when they are talking about the stereotype Zusak attempts to show us. Although the Nazis committed atrocious acts, that doesn't mean that all Nazis were in support of them. Jessica brings up a good point in saying that there might have been a good number of Nazi party members who were scared into being members. In the book, when we are first introduced to Alex Steiner, there is a passage titled "The Contradictory Politics of Alex Steiner" (59). In the passage, it says that he was a member of the Nazi Party, but he did not hate the Jews, or anyone else. It came down to his family and supporting them. Zusak seems to be trying to tell us that not every Nazi party member agreed with the actions of the party as a whole.
Due to the situation at hand in Nazi Germany, I think it is safe to believe that many members of the Nazi party were “scared” into joining (Jessica B). Although this fear may have changed a person’s identity as it appears to the government at this time, it does not morph the way people of Nazi Germany went about their personal lives in all cases.
Hans Hubermann, for example, cringes at the mere thought of applying for the Nazi party because he does not agree with various aspects of it. In “The Thought Process of Hans Hubermann” Death tells readers that Hans “…couldn’t join a party that antagonized people in such a way” as the NSDAP did (180). However, because he does not want to stir up suspicion or cause any harm to his family, Hans “finally [submits]” and applies to become a member (181). When hiding Max in the Hubermann’s basement, everything appears fine on the outside, but due to how he truly feels about Jews or perhaps his personal relationship with one Jew in particular (Max), Hans decides to whole-heartedly risk numerous lives for what he truly believes in. Therefore, Hans is able to keep his own identity, although it is kept secret.
I think that there were a definite few people who truly supported Hitler and his actions, but due to the fear that was forced upon all of the people, they could only submit to his commands, for fear of losing their own life and the lives of their family members.
It seems as though some of the people of Nazi Germany who were not Jewish put on fake identities in order to get by, survive, and obey the Fuhrer in such horrific times, according to The Book Thief. But many, like Hans Hubermann, did what they could to keep their own identity and hold true what they believed to be right.
I agree with the comments that have been made about how many Nazis could have been scared into joining the party. I believe this is very true. I also believe the comments about how some people changed their identiy on the outside to survive is true. However, since we are on the subject of idenitiy I'd like to say this, when the war was all over not everyone got there old identity back. Even if some of the people joined the Nazis to survive, they might not have come back the same. Some people could have lost thier identity in power. Even some of the best, good hearted people could have been lost. That is what starts wars, it is a want of power, so who can say that none of those people who joined for good reasons came out unaffected. Power can change people, it all depends on how they use it. Also many people could have been traumatized seeing the horrible crimes that were commitied. What I am trying to get to is that not only could the war have helped people find thier identities, it could also have helped them lose them.
Everyone's comments about how people put on different identities to seem unthreatening to party members and to help their families out. I want to go a little farther with that and suggest that the characters have different levels of identity. Liesel isn't the same person with Rudy that she is with her parents or the Mayor's wife. Now this could be written off as a little girl just masking her true identity when she is in the face of authority like Alex Steiner. But the language in the book suggests otherwise. When you read about Liesel with either her parents or Rudy, you still get the feeling that she is showing her true feelings. And for a girl that has gone through as much as she has, multiple identities might be a way of fitting in or surviving. The only question is which identity is the real girl?
Identity in the time of World War II was a vital part of survival. If a man was not apart of the Nazi Party they could be discriminated upon as a ‘Jew lover’.
Hans experienced this torment from his own son. When does it become necessary to display acts of disgust toward your own father? During the civil war families were torn apart because of their different opinions. The same thing is happening here.
All a man had to do to survive was to play the part of a Nazi. For example, “Point One: He was a member of the Nazi Party, but he did not hate the Jews, or anyone else for that matter.” (59). There Death was talking about Alex Steiner. He was considered to be a faithful Hitler supporter because of his involvement in the Nazi Party. He was sent to war when he refused to let them take Rudy away. His identity to them was compromised then so they had to test his faithfulness.
Hans’s identity was first considered as a ‘Jew lover’ when he painted the Jewish people in his community’s doors that were labeled with Jewish slurs. He made many gestures of kindness towards the Jews, which was frowned upon by the Nazis. Hans helped a Jew in the parade when he offered him some bread. They were both then whipped repeatedly. Instead of Hans getting taken away like he thought, they then accepted him into the Nazi Party. Just like Steiner, they had to make sure he was truly a follower of Hitler. Hans was sent to war as well. Identity is more significant to man living in that time in Nazi Germany.
Identity is a very important part of every story, giving the reader a sense of who a person is. It helps the reader connect and relate to each character, almost making them like an extension of their own imagination. Some characters, however, are easier to relate to and recognize than others.
While every comment so far has made a valid point, I believe that we are missing out on a very important character with a very flawed identity: Death.
We are absorbed unknowingly in his character from the very first words but, like the other characters in the story, he is invisible. Not far into the story, we almost forget he’s there. His identity, I think, is a very important one to take into consideration. In the very first pages of the book he conveys to us that he has made “the most elementary of mistakes” (pg. 7) by becoming interested in Liesel. On page 13, he goes on to tell us that when he finds Liesel for the last time, he “wanted to stop. To crouch down. [He] wanted to say: ‘I’m sorry child.’ But that [was] not allowed.”
This scene gives us a first glance of the alteration of Death’s identity. Why does he become so interested in Liesel? What is it about her identity that makes him so curious?
Apologies...I seem to have made a wee bit of an error in my third paragraph. I meant to say that "like HE IS TO the other characters in the story, he is invisible."
Have a lovely day.
During war, identity changes often. There is a fight for who will be the losers and who will be the winners. Men become known as soldiers and women take the identity of nurses. Often times wars are fought for identity. World War II was a fight which Hitler was involved in so that Germany could take the title of the most powerful country of the world. He himself was very involved in identity and categorizing people as we have already established.
These identities which Hitler used to define people are apparent in the book. As death defines Rudy he points out he had, “gangly blue eyes, and hair the color of the lemon” (48). In Hitler’s eyes these were the traits of a true German and the perfect race. This is not the only time which Rudy is defined by his blond hair. As Liesel looks for Rudy after the bombing, “It was the boy’s hair she saw first. . . He lay with yellow hair and closed eyes” (535). That is often how Liesel describes Rudy. She defines him by his hair, which is a trait that was important during World War II. Having blond hair could be the difference between life and death.
We have talked about how many people had multiple identities during the war. I thought a great example of this was how Rudy did not know about Max until Liesel saw him in the parade of Jews. Here two best friends had a huge secret between them. It also seemed very mature that Liesel would not even tell her best friend. The war takes away her identity of being a child and innocence she is forced to play the part of an adult as she learns to handle difficult situations without the support of another. Her dreams are another example of this. She witnesses the death of her brother when she is very young and the only person who was there with her abandons her with foster parents.
Like Lauren R says, “During war, identity changes often.” Markus Zusak shows how Jewish people, in general, during WWII truly began to lose or lost completely their own identity. He says, “Once in a while a man or woman – no, they were not men and women; they were Jews – would find Liesel’s face among the crowd” (392). Zusak shows how the Jewish people during this time were degraded so much that they were no longer humans; they were only known by their religion. It did not matter if they were a bookkeeper, a shoemaker, a cook, a farmer, etc.; if they practiced or even had a relative who practiced the Jewish religion, they were considered nothing more than a sickness to be cured.
Although Jewish people were somewhat forced to lose their identity during WWII because of the hardships and the degradation they were put through, did people like Liesel who were not Jewish also lose their identity? Brendon W says, “And for a girl that has gone through as much as she has, multiple identities might be a way of fitting in or surviving. The only question is which identity is the real girl?” Yes, it is true that Leisel acts differently with her parents than she does with Rudy but doesn’t everybody act differently in different situations? I mean, a typical teenager is not going to carelessly throw around curse words in front of their parents, but around their closest friends, it might be a different story. This does not, however, mean that a person’s true identity has changed. Liesel, along with most other characters in The Book Thief, act differently in order to “[fit] in or [survive]” due to the difficult circumstances they are faced with, but she does not change her identity (Brendon W). She may hide it, but throughout the novel she remains Liesel Meminger. She definitely matures throughout the novel but doesn’t she always stay Liesel Meminger, the book thief?
Grace brings up a good point when she states that it's true that Liesel acts differently around Rudy then she does around her parents, but it's also true that most teenagers due. We're different people at work then we are with our friends. But does that change our true identities? I would venture to say no. A teenager could be outgoing and vivacious around their parents, and reserved and shy around kids their own age, but that doesn't change their identity does it?
Danielle brings up a point about how what happens on the outside is not necessarily what a person’s true identity is. I think that there are two parts to identity; the identity which others categorize you as and internally how you define yourself.
It is obvious that war changes the identities of the Jews as Grace talked about. She said, “they were only known by their religion.” This is not exactly their full identity; this is the identity which shows to others and what others put on them. What Zusak adds to this though is their internal identity which he shows through his use of Max. This shows how the war changed the internal identity of Jews. Max writes a story to Liesel in which he shows how internally he has been affected: “All my life, I’ve been scared of men standing over me” (224). This was a fear that had permutated into the depths of himself and became part of his identity. Also in the story, Max draws all the Jews as birds and the Germans are human. This shows that even internally he has been influenced to think that he was a different animal than everyone else. This was very interesting to think that it is not just that their outside identity effected, but internally they felt in-superior as well. I have often been exposed to how their exterior identity was changed. In history class you learn of the ghettos and the arm bands, but it is interesting to have attention drawn to the internal identity which is often overlooked. These categories hurt their identities and confused them internally; no one should feel that you’re not the same animal as another person just because of race. The book looks at the internal identity of people in a warring country which is often much more confusing than their exterior identity, although it is often just as changing and confusing.
I think Danielle has made a good point in saying that acting differently around out peers and our parents does not nessesarily change our identities.
For example, Liesel stole both with her father there (page 125) and with the boys, as we all know.
Like Holly mentioned, "If Leisel didn't steal the book, she would have never gotten her identity of being the book thief."
Liesel's identity of being a book thief is revealed to Hans (64), the mayor's wife, Ilsa (132), and to the boys she stole food with (151). Her identity, although it remains a secret, is the same to a parent, the mayor's wife, and friends.
Lauren R makes an excellent point when she states that “war changes the identities” of people. She refers to the Jewish people living in Europe during World War II. However, in terms of identity, war also changes the identities of other people too. From American soldiers to Japanese villagers, war changes everyone involved. In fact, it creates identities even more. We have already discussed Liesel’s identity as the Book Thief. If not for the war, Liesel would never have felt compelled to begin stealing books. It is only because of their scarcity that her fascination in them is born. She steals a book when the object is to burn them, as seen at the book burning on Hitler’s birthday (120). If not for the war, Liesel would have never become a book thief. Her identity would be totally different.
In Nazi Germany, the only identity that mattered for any person was whether you supported Hitler or not. Even if such an identity was only an outer appearance. Hans Hubermann disagrees with the ideas and actions of the Nazi party, yet he “ ‘heil Hitlered’ when it was asked of him and flew the flag on the right days” (183) and so he is able to stay. His outward identity of a Hitler supporter is what helps him survive for so long. The same goes for Max, who carries a copy of Hitler’s book as he travels to Hans’ house. His reflections of this are “Mein Kampf. Of all the things to save him” (161). Because Max outwardly is identified as a Hitler supported, he is saved. His true identity, as a Jew, doesn’t define him.
Identities play a huge part in war. However, unlike Jessica B said, I feel it is because they are often lost, not created.
Years ago, the side with the most men usually won the battle. But no matter who wins, many of the soldiers end up dead. Yet today, these heroes are remembered only as a number in our text books. Even today, when not as many soldiers are lost at a time, casualties are reported as a number. The public never knows the true soldier who sacrificed himself for his nation. It is impossible to share with a nation exactly who is out fighting for their freedom, so the majority of soldiers really have no identity other than as one more number.
With war comes death, and with death comes a loss of identity also. I have already talked about how soldiers do not really have an identity other than being from a specific country, yet in death, even this identity is often lost. After one of the raids near Himmel Street, Rudy and Liesel find one of the enemy planes nearby. The pilot is almost dead so Rudy places "the smiling teddy bear cautiously onto the pilot's shoulder . . . The dying man breathed it in" (490). It does not matter to Rudy that this man tried to kill them, all he saw was a man far from home suffering. He was not an enemy, but somebody who needed some comfort. In the end, this man was a dying human just like any other.
I have to disagree with Jessica B F when she says, "In fact, [war] creates identities even more". I understand how she reaches the conclusion that the war is what brings Liesel to become the book thief, but war simplifies the identities of the masses rather than expands them. This is because wars cause people to categorize themselves for or against a cause. In the case of the German people during world war two they were either for the Nazis or against them and the only way to not be in those categories was to die. Death even reminds us "in 1933, 90 percent of Germans showed unflinching support for Adolf Hitler. That leaves 10 percent who didn't." (63) War doesn’t let people play the middle ground because they have to compare what they believe in with what the opposing leaders say is right and join whoever is closest to their personal beliefs.
A subject that seems to be in question quite a bit is how our identity is affected when we act differently around different groups of people. I like Lauren R F’s idea that there are to parts to a person’s identity which consist of “the identity which others categorize you as and internally how you define yourself” except I feel that how you define yourself is more important. After all, nobody knows who you are better than yourself simply because you can judge every aspect of who you are, even if you are biased. Because you mostly define who you are, it influences how you display yourself to others and manipulates how people define you. This can be seen with Viktor Chemmel. He’s a very arrogant and patronizing person with quite an ego. Because he sees himself so highly he becomes the leader and “[possesses] a certain charisma, a kind of follow me” (273). None of the boys challenge his replacement of Arthur Berg because of this air he has created by believing in himself. A comedian could never have a successful career telling good jokes and make people laugh unless they believed that they were truly amusing. It’s not all that different for the characters of The Book Thief.
During war, identities are both “lost,” like Becky S says, and “created” (Jessica B). Identities are changed during war which means that an old identity was replaced, or “created” with a new one. It is true, as Lauren R and Keanan E suggest, that a person is in control of characterizing themselves and creating their own identity, but when referring to war and specifically WWII, there seems to be a force able to morph identities right and left. This force may very well be death.
Death is able to transform people in the ways they act and in their day-to-day routines. Take Frau Holtzapfel, for example: before the death of her son died in Stalingrad, she was a lively, elderly woman who never passed up a chance to spit on Rosa Hubermann’s door. But weeks after her son died, she “had not yet begun to recover,” “spent most of the time staring at the window,” “all brutality and reprimand were wrested from her face,” and she hardly ever spoke (485). Who knows what else could have been on her mind other than the lack of her son, the lack of life that was surrounding her. Death made her seem like a completely different person.
Keenan talks more in depth about how there are two parts to identity. He says, “I feel that how you define yourself is more important [than how others define you].” I think that it is interesting that he says this because the novel goes in depth about the effects that others’ judgments have on you. A huge part of the book is spent with the reader holding their breath, hoping that Hans won’t be found suspicious and that he hides his toleration for Jews. During World War II the outward identity was very important especially in Germany. Throughout the book characters struggle with how they can keep their identity in check with the beliefs of society and still have an internal identity true to themselves. Keenan says that a person must be confident in their internal identity and then their external identity will be more true to themselves. He goes on to conclude that, “It’s not all that different for the characters of The Book Thief.” I disagree with him on this point though.
Characters in the book don’t have a hard time with their identity because they are not confident in it, but the constraints which society puts on them is what creates a unique struggle. For instance Hans has to apply to be part of the Nazi Party even though he knows he does not agree with their beliefs. This is not a struggle for him because he does not know how he feels; it is a struggle because he is confident in what he believes. The internal feelings of many of the characters have to be masked in order to fit into society. A great example of this is the Jesse Owens incident. Rudy’s father tells him, “You shouldn’t want to be like black people or Jewish people or anyone who is . . . not us” (60). The Germans know that they are told what they must want to be like and in this passage we get a glimpse of a father showing his boy the harsh realities of the society they live in. Rudy must hide the love of Jesse Owens because he is black and he isn’t them. There were constraints placed on identity which made it so a person could not simply be confident with their internal identity, but often it had to be masked.
I never considered what the characters of the book were going through to be "constraints placed on [their] identity" as Lauren said because I didn't really feel that was an identity, but more of a facade that was forced to be put up when Hans applied for the nazi party and Max carried Hitler's Mein Kampf to divert attention while he fled to the Hubermanns. This was just a false identity to protect themselves so that who they really were could live on. This suppression of identity only forces outsiders to be further misled of who the suppresser really is.
When Rudy gives Liesel the alias "The Book Thief" and she accepts the title, I feel that is more of an example of an outside force acting on a person's identity because Liesel accepts it to be true to who she really is. The Jewish people lost their identity as humans this way because Hitler could convince them that they were nothing and had no valuable identity.
I might be misunderstanding Laurens comment that "this is not a struggle for him because he does not know how he feels; it is a struggle because he is confident in what he believes." in reference to Hans trying to join the nazi party because I feel he is confident in what he believes, but the struggle is being created in suppressing who he truly is and what he believes is right to save himself and his family, not because his identity is being altered by society but rather suppressed.
For someone’s identity to be altered by an outside force like the status quo from society can only happen when the person being influenced accepts it to be true to their identity. Otherwise it’s just a “[mask] in order to fit into society” as Lauren said. My point is that when, for example, someone doesn’t like their friends doing something like getting drunk and don’t voice their disagreement is a completely different situation from when they let their friends influence them and decide that it’s okay.
the theory of having two identities is very true in the book and it is true that society in the book tried to force people to think and feel the same way. So on the outside everyone looked like they suported Hitler completely and his crusade against anything different. But it is the other identity, the one that people bury that is what is important. How people view themselves internally is very important in the book. When everyone is made to look the same on the outside, people start to look to what's underneath to find out who they are. This kind of intense inner quest is a great drving force as Liesel grows up in Nazi germany and it shapes her relationships and actions.
Keenan E makes an interesting point when he says “The Jewish people lost their identity as humans this way because Hitler could convince them that they were nothing and had no valuable identity.” I find this interesting because it may not even apply to the Jews being sent to concentration camps. Max, the most prominent Jewish man in the book, does not lose his identity. The identity of any one person is such a complex thing that to lose this identity completely is unthinkable. In Max’s case, he has begun to fall under the spell of Hitler’s proclamations. In his own daydreams he thinks of himself as a “piece of Jewish stench and filth” (252). This may give the impression that Max’s identity has been lost, and that he no longer believes himself to be human. However, another part of his identity, that being his history and his family and friends, stays with him. He draws this history in The Standover Man. He doesn’t let it be forgotten, making it remain part of his very human identity. In the same way, the Jews being taken to concentration camps and having to go through the most horrendous types of torture thought more often and clearly that they were below human form. However, as long as they could remember their family and their history, their identity as humans could remain intact. Because our identity is such a complex idea, losing it is not as simple as Keenan E makes it sound, even for those who went through the worst situations.
I would also like to touch upon a comment Lauren R made on July 19. She said that, “Also in the story, Max draws all the Jews as birds and the Germans are human.” I find that this can be interpreted in a different way. Max draws himself as a bird because Liesel says “his hair is like feathers” (224). He also identifies himself with a bird because he hopes for the freedom birds have. He wishes to “fly”, if you will. Also notice that at the end of The Standover Man, Max draws himself as a man. Perhaps this is because he realizes his freedom may never come, or because he wants to show he is like everyone else. Either way, this hints that Max is slowly remembering his identity. Lauren R believes “he has been influenced to think that he was a different animal than everyone else.” I find it is the opposite, and that he knows he is the same as everyone else.
Keenan and Jessica both make interesting points about outside forces acting on our identities. Keenan says, "When Rudy gives Liesel the alias "The Book Thief" and she accepts the title, I feel that is more of an example of an outside force acting on a person's identity because Liesel accepts it to be true to who she really is." I thought about this for a while, but I think there's a difference between someone influencing our identity and someone forming our identity. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Keenan, because it sounded to me like he was saying Rudy formed Liesel as the book thief. I think that sometimes we let people have influence on our identities, but that's a completely different thing from letting them form who we are.
They also both bring up a good point with another one of Keenan's comments, that, "The Jewish people lost their identity as humans this way because Hitler could convince them that they were nothing and had no valuable identity." I disagree with him on this count. Hitler "dehumanized" the Jews. They were rounded up, put in to ghettos, then rounded up again and put in cattle cars and taken to either death or concentration camps. Throughout all of that they could have maintained their personal identity, but Hitler made them out to be animals as opposed to humans.
I like Jessica's point on how Max draws Jew's as birds while Nazi's are human. At the time that Max is drawing these pictures, he knows that millions of his bretheren are in chains stuck in concentration camps or forced to hide from the sight of people. The irony of this situation, how he depicts Jewish people as birds free to fly anywhere they wish when they are mostly held captive, illustrates how they might see their identity. These people who are chained in real life may see themselves as free in a spirtual or otherwise unreal life. This sense of freedom is what I see as being a Jewish person's identity in "The Book Thief".
HItler might be able to use words and power to force these people into positions where thay see themselves as sub-human in the physical world, but all his might cannot force them to abandon their identity in the spiritual world.
Bryan's comment on spiritual identity I find very interesting because it is something that people have talked a little about but never delved into. The jews are the best example of spiritual identity because they are so oppressed in the book. The theory that while they were being thrown around like cattle shows great strength of identity and will. The jewish characters in the book aren't the only ones that have spiritualy identities. Liesel, while attending a chatholic school contends that she is luthren and that doesn't change as the book progresses. Hans Hubermann doesn't to my knowledge ever reveal a religious bias in the book but his actions of good will undermine the atrocities that the Nazi's were performing at the time. So I guess what i'm trying to say is that usually in the book spiritual identity is rebelious or perpindicular to the outside world that the characters live in.
Like Bryan W, I also thought that it was ironic how Max depicted Jews as birds but then I thought about characteristics of birds and changed my mind. Birds are often caged and carry diseases that many people are scared to get. Max and many Jews are like birds because Hitler cages them. Hitler made his people fear and resent the Jews. An example of this is Alex Steiner when Death talks about him.
“* * * THE CONTRADICTICTORY POLITICS * * *
OF ALEX STEINER
Point One: He was a member of the Nazi Party, but he did not hate the Jews, or anyone else for that matter.
Point Two: Secretly, though, he couldn’t help feeling a percentage of relief (or worse – gladness!) when Jewish shop owners were put out of business – propaganda informed him that it was only a matter of time before a plague of Jewish tailors showed up and stole his customers.
Point Three: But did that mean they should be driven out completely?” (59).
Hitler made his people believe that the Jews would take over their jobs just like how people fear bird diseases because of the media. Birds being caged is like how Jews were persecuted and sent to concentration camps where they would die. Jews being identified with birds is fitting for them.
A person’s identity is not the same as a personality, which I think is what Lauren R touches on in her July 19 post. She says that “there are two parts to identity; the identity which others categorize you as and internally how you define yourself.” I think that a personality would be the former; how others see you, and identity would be the latter.
I think that in The Book Thief the characters are having a true struggle with both their personalities and their identities, and I agree with Jessica B when she says that “because our identity is such a complex idea, losing it is not…simple.” It takes a true psychological toll on a person to alter their true identity, and though they may try and alter it themselves for survival or uniformity, it is very difficult indeed to erase it completely. What the Jews went through during the Holocaust would undoubtedly classify a psychological toll, but I do not think that their identities could be altered by a single man such as Hitler, as Danielle F states in her July 23 post.
While they were “dehumanized” by the Nazis, I think that this is more of an impact on the altering of their personalities, not their identities.
In response to Danielle F, you did kind of misunderstand what I was meaning. What I meant for someone to 'form' your identity would be where he or she decided everything for you. Kind of like those over demanding parents that think, "My kids going to play football and he's going to be the star quarter back and he's going to be the best in his league!". To compare it to Rudy, he would have had to tell Liesel to become a thief who stole books and that she'd be called "the book thief". This is, obviously different from what happens, as she already steals books on her own, without him requiring it. If anything he'd prefer "the food. Find the food. And cigarettes, if you can." (288). To me, titling someone's identity (such as calling a lawyer a lawyer) is a far cry from forming his or her identity into a lawyer or "the book thief". I hope this makes more sense.
In response to the second paragraph about dehumanization, I have to agree that Hitler did dehumanize the Jewish people that he tortured, but I don't see how this is any different from destroying a person's identity. If you can't recognize yourself as human, how could you recognize who you were? We as humans create our identities and name each other in a process to make ourselves unique. After all the Jews had gone through they were just "looking for something to subdue the confusion" (392). Hitler had so much control, only the few who truly believed they were still human beings and that God would save them could survive. Without feeling human, the identity is lost as well.
To me, the difference between altering someone's identity and dehumanizing them is rather complex. To "dehumanize" someone means that you are convinced, and/or you convince other people that the person is inhuman. For example, during WWII, people may not have seen what was happening to the Jews as the genocide we do today because they didn't see the Jews as people. Hitler went to great lengths to make the Jews scapegoats for everything people saw wrong with Germany. He convinced them that Jews were beneath them, that they were less of people. For example, on page 138
***A GUIDED TOUR OF SUFFERING***
To your left,
perhaps your right,
perhaps even straight ahead,
you find a small blck room.
In it sits a Jew
He is scum.
He is starving.
He is afraid.
Please-try not to look away.
Dehumanizing means convincing yourself and/or others that a certain person, or people, are inhuman, lesser then you. Altering someones identity, however, means changing how they view themselves, and the side of themseves they show to others.
I would agree with Becca S when she commented about how personality and identity are not the same however I think that personality helps describes ones’ identity and together they help show that we have existence as humans. In The Book Thief and real life Jews were not only “dehumanized” as Becca S says but they also went through an extreme torture both mentally and physically. When the Jews first were marching down Himmel Street, Death says about Liesel, “She understood that she was utterly worthless to these people. They could not be saved, and in a few minutes, she would see what would happen to those who might try to help them’’ (393). These people were worthless to many of Hitler’s followers and to themselves. It was probably extremely hard for Jews to think that they were human just like everyone else especially when they were being treated like dirt. This broke the Jews down and had impact on their personalities and identity as a whole. Someone cannot go through a holocaust and say that they are who they were before the holocaust happened to them.
Whitnee N. brought up a really important point when she said that the people who survived the Holocaust are not the same as they were before it occurred. A part of this has to do with what Becca S. brought up: personality versus identity. Maybe I misunderstood what Becca was saying but I do not think that personality and identity are as different as some people have been saying. For example, I am a very happy person. That is my personality, but I would also consider it a part of my identity because that is who I am. Maybe that is exactly what Becca is trying to say: that a person's personality is a part of their identity. Basically, personality is a sub-set of identity, not an entirely different way to describe yourself.
After all of that, maybe what I am going to say about how people are different after the Holocaust will make more sense. Several parts of the victim's identities are the same, they are still Jews, or Gypsies, or whatever religion/culture they originally were, but now they have a different outlook on life and a different personality. Somebody who was once happy all of the time is probably much more depressed after surviving so many horrors. Many of the abused are probably not as trustful or forgiving as they once were. People became hardened during the Holocaust and they will never lose that. At the time, their identities were completely stolen. Now, they have regained much of their identities, but there are parts that can never be retrieved.
I agree with Whitnee and Becca that most people were probably not the same person after the Holocaust, but they didn't lose their identity completely. It's possible that they maintained part of who they were before. "When {Max} was younder, he grew to love nothing more than a good fistfight" (187). Max maintained that part of his identity throughout the entire story. We are introduced to him as the Jewish Fist Fighter, and he trains to have a fight with the fuhrer, and and on the march when he is being whipped for talking to Liesel, he tells himself, "Just another push-up, Max. Just another push-up on the cold basement floor" (515). He also still identifies himself to her as the Jewish Fist Fighter (513). People's personalities may have been changed, but they could have maintained their identity.
Devon S F
On what was said by Whitnee and Becca, I'm not sure that I fully agree. Yes, they present a very good point, but I think that there's more to it. Personally, I think that identity is more lasting than they are saying. When hard times come along, I'm not sure they change who we are. We might be a little wiser or more knowledgable to what the world has to offer or what others think about us, but I'm not sure that who we are necessarily changes because of it. In fact, I will go far enough to say that our identities define how we will act in certain situations. If one truly knows who he or she is and what he or she believes, than a difficult or painful situation only reaffirms who we are. If you are a Jew who is very sure of who you are and what you believe, then you will know that as God's chosen people, the Holocaust is only a test to see if you are faithful. However, a Jewish child who is very impressionable, unsure, and still forming his identity, the Holocaust will have a huge effect on his identity because, as he is not yet sure who he is, it will make him doubt his faith and even his humanity. That person's identity is mure succumbing to pressure and doubt than the first. In the book, Liesel goes through so much, yet I believe that her identity remains the same. She is merely a child who searches for the good in life, and although she loses a brother, two mothers, a father, and many friends, at the end, as Death hands her the book when he is taking her away, he writes, " 'Did you read it?' she asked, but she did not look at me. Her eyes were fixed to the words," (550). Obviously, she still, after many years and struggles, still cares about words, and it remains a part of her identity until her death. So I'm sorry to disagree, but I do believe that identity is more permanent than has been previously stated.
I agree with Devon S about our identities. I think that they are much more long-term than people have been discussing. Personalities can be altered, but I don’t think that someone’s identity can change all that easily. I’m sure that after the Holocaust people were dramatically different than they were before, but the identities of people probably didn’t change. An identity is who you are. I think an identity should help get you through during the troubled times. Devon S said, “In fact, I will go far enough to say that our identities define how we will act in certain situations. If one truly knows who he or she is and what he or she believes, than a difficult or painful situation only reaffirms who we are”. I don’t think that anyone’s identities were stolen in the Holocaust. Possibly confused, but in the end I think that people knew who they were. So, I don’t think that it was a matter of re-finding an identity, but remembering it because it was there all along.
Earlier in this section Brendon W states, “ I want to go a little farther with that and suggest that the characters have different levels of identity. Liesel isn’t the same person with Rudy that she is with her parents or the Mayor’s wife.” He is absolutely right. People act differently depending who they are with, which results in a number of different identities in one person. I however, did not agree when he asked the question, “Which identity is the real girl?” The answer is: all of them. Why should she only have one identity? In the real world we all do the same thing that Liesel does in the book. We act a certain way in front of are parents, friends, and other people.
~Example~
To your family you might be polite or the perfect little angel. To your friends you might be crazy and loud. To other people you might be rude and disrespectful. If someone were to ask those groups what your identity was there would be different answers from everyone. Meaning that your identity changes depending who you are with, but if you put all of those identities together it will create the TRUE identity of who you are.
In response to Devon S and Danielle F I do agree that identity is never lost but it does change. Like I have said in my previous blog, personality helps define our identity. I agree with Devon S when he said, “Obviously, she still, after many years and struggles, still cares about words, and it remains a part of her identity until her death”. Liesel may still care about something for such a long time but that that doesn’t make her exactly the same person from the beginning to the end of The Book Thief. The reason why I said this is because Devon is only talking about one part of her identity and that is what she values. There are so many aspects to what makes people who they are like physical characteristics, personal values, personality, people’s actions, and so much more. While our values change but our eye color never changes (unless you have colored eye contacts) something is always changing. That is why although some things never change others do and since these aspects contribute to something greater, our identity is always changing.
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